Immigration, deportations on Occupy L.A.’s list of grievances

Photo by DB's Travels/Flickr (Creative Commons)

A sign at the Occupy Los Angeles camp, October 2011

As Occupy L.A. protesters prepared last week to fight the city’s planned eviction of their camp outside City Hall – still on hold as they take the eviction fight to court - a list of demands drafted by the protesters solidified their sympathy for the immigrant rights movement.

A few days ago, the Los Angeles protesters posted a list of “grievances not addressed” that ranged from a moratorium on foreclosures to seeking a better public transit system to student debt relief, and this request:

Los Angeles to be declared a sanctuary city for the undocumented, deportations to be discontinued and cooperation with immigration authorities be ended – including the turning in of arrestees’ names to immigration authorities.

It’s a tall order in Los Angeles County, which has long had a partnership with the federal government that allows for jail inmates to be turned over to immigration officials. The city is already criticized by immigration restriction advocates as being a so-called “sanctuary city” for its Special Order 40, which bars Los Angeles police from inquiring about immigration status.

Still, it’s indicative of Los Angeles’ Occupy movement. Since the beginning, Occupy protests in other cities (including in New York, where Occupy Wall Street got the ball rolling) have been accused of being too white, with little black or Latino participation despite these groups having been hit hardest by the economic crisis that spurred the protests in the first place.

This hasn’t been the case so much in California, though, where Latinos have been involved in the protests since the start, among them immigrant rights activists and supporters. While the protesters’ grievances continue to revolve around the role of banks and other corporate entities in the economic crisis, immigration has made its way onto the list. Earlier this month, Occupy protesters in Oakland embarked on a campaign to free Francisco “Pancho” Ramos-Stierle, a former graduate student who was placed on a deportation hold after his arrest during a rally. And on Saturday, about 300 Occupy San Francisco protesters held an immigrant rights march.

Other groups have held Occupy-related immigration protests as well, including an Occupy ICE group in San Diego organized by the local janitors’ union and an Occupy Birmingham protest today in Alabama, with protesters picketing an immigrant detention center.

Where it goes from there isn’t clear. The Occupy movement has been criticized for taking on too many grievances, though supporters argue that this doesn’t necessarily dilute its goals. The complete Los Angeles list of unaddressed grievances (listed under the bilingual heading “Para Todos Todo, Para Nosotros Nada: For Everyone, Everything, For Us, Nothing”) can be read here.

Next up: Whether the Occupy L.A. campers are evicted or not, there is an Occupy Ports protest planned for Dec. 12, timed to coincide with a planned economic boycott by immigrant advocates. Dec. 12 also happens to be the feast day of the Virgin of Guadalupe.

  • http://www.facebook.com/cmagnnum Charles Strahan

    solution= if they want to allow illegal immigration, no deportation, send all illegals to California, especially LA

  • http://www.facebook.com/cmagnnum Charles Strahan

    solution= if they want to allow illegal immigration, no deportation, send all illegals to California, especially LA

  • Anonymous

    Fewer opportunities for Americans because American resources are expended on illegal aliens. 

  • Anonymous

    Fewer opportunities for Americans because American resources are expended on illegal aliens. 

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    Most of the “occupy” nitwits are so disorganized that they can’t even identify just what they are protesting. If they were protesting the scumbags who caused this financial disaster (the Bush’s, the Clinton’s, Comrade ObaMao, the elites, the banksters, the Federal Reserve, etc.) I could go along with the program. If these cretins are pushing amnesty for illegal alien parasites, sanctuary cities and other clearly destructive things it is crystal clear that they don’t want to improve their lot in the U.S. Either that or they are seriously drug-addled or insane.

    That spineless philandering miscreant in the mayor’s office and that worthless LAPD chief should have acted to remove the OLA health hazard a long time ago.

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    Send them to 200 North Spring Street, Los Angeles. Tell them to tell security that their buddy Tony Villar said it was OK for them to occupy his house in Hancock Park.

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    Send them to 200 North Spring Street, Los Angeles. Tell them to tell security that their buddy Tony Villar said it was OK for them to occupy his house in Hancock Park.

  • Anonymous

    Then stop demanding and consuming the goods and services produced by illegal
    aliens and/or increase the number of immigration visas for the workers that come/stay here illegally to produce the goods and services that we demand and consume.

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    I say put the military on the border to stop the invasion once and for all. If certain businesses require violating US laws to provide whatever goods or services they are offering then we do not need those goods or services and need to make sure that those business owners wind up in prison in short order. Got it?

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    I say put the military on the border to stop the invasion once and for all. If certain businesses require violating US laws to provide whatever goods or services they are offering then we do not need those goods or services and need to make sure that those business owners wind up in prison in short order. Got it?

  • Anonymous

    They should also demand that they quit running citizens through NCIC computer records when they are arrested. It is the equivalent of S-Comm for foreigners. And if they do find something, don’t hand them over to federal marshals.
    After all, what are a few felonies between friends, eh, Amigo?

  • Guest

    we are not from Mars…we are humans just like you…stop calling us aliens…we are human beings just like you that care and love our families and want a better life for them.

  • Guest

    we are not from Mars…we are humans just like you…stop calling us aliens…we are human beings just like you that care and love our families and want a better life for them.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_RIAGWZ65VMNBCXHHKIUKR33HKU Jasper

    Prado, if we deport all illegal aliens, people would no longer demand and consume the goods and services produced by illegal aliens.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_RIAGWZ65VMNBCXHHKIUKR33HKU Jasper

    Prado, if we deport all illegal aliens, people would no longer demand and consume the goods and services produced by illegal aliens.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_RIAGWZ65VMNBCXHHKIUKR33HKU Jasper

    Guest, the word “alien” simply means foreigner. It is not insulting or derogatory in any way.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_RIAGWZ65VMNBCXHHKIUKR33HKU Jasper

    Guest, the word “alien” simply means foreigner. It is not insulting or derogatory in any way.

  • Anonymous

    In other words, the occupiers want open borders.  Which is exactly the same thing Wall Street wants, every year the Wall Street Journal says the US should pass an amendment which states: “there shall be open borders”.  Wait, weren’t the occupiers protesting against Wall Street?  Then why do they support exactly the same thing Wall Street does?

  • Anonymous

    The US government has used the legal term “alien” for over 200 years.  If you don’t like the more recent Hollywood corruption of the term, go protest Hollywood.

  • Anonymous

    The US government has used the legal term “alien” for over 200 years.  If you don’t like the more recent Hollywood corruption of the term, go protest Hollywood.

  • Anonymous

    Americans did those jobs before the illegal invasion and can do them again.

  • Anonymous

    Americans did those jobs before the illegal invasion and can do them again.

  • Anonymous

    “Multi-American”?  What the hell is that?

  • Anonymous

    “Multi-American”?  What the hell is that?

  • Anonymous

    Why do illegals get to cut to the front of line, while millions of people around the world follow the rules and wait legally for years to live in the U.S.?

    Over half the world would like to live in the U.S. for a “better life”. Should we let in over 3 BILLION people?

    IT’S ABOUT THE NUMBERS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0s8eKg2b8I&feature=player_embedded

  • Anonymous

    Why do illegals get to cut to the front of line, while millions of people around the world follow the rules and wait legally for years to live in the U.S.?

    Over half the world would like to live in the U.S. for a “better life”. Should we let in over 3 BILLION people?

    IT’S ABOUT THE NUMBERS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0s8eKg2b8I&feature=player_embedded

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    Hmm…. at 9:07 pm PT LAPD is assembling hordes of cops at Dodger Stadium and they are boarding buses headed for the filthy hippie’s encampment downtown. Word is that they plan to clear that louse-infested encampment starting at 10:30 PM… this according to http://kcal9.com

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    Hmm…. at 9:07 pm PT LAPD is assembling hordes of cops at Dodger Stadium and they are boarding buses headed for the filthy hippie’s encampment downtown. Word is that they plan to clear that louse-infested encampment starting at 10:30 PM… this according to http://kcal9.com

  • Anonymous

    If you were from Mars, you would be called a Martian. 
    If you were from Mars and broke into the United States without an invitation, you would qualify for the title of “illegal alien”. 
    The “illegal alien” title is a voluntary one that can be shed simply by returning home. 
    I wish you, as a human being, would demonstrate some love and respect for American families, who are also human beings, and stop breaking into our country and stealing our resources.  

  • Anonymous

    If you were from Mars, you would be called a Martian. 
    If you were from Mars and broke into the United States without an invitation, you would qualify for the title of “illegal alien”. 
    The “illegal alien” title is a voluntary one that can be shed simply by returning home. 
    I wish you, as a human being, would demonstrate some love and respect for American families, who are also human beings, and stop breaking into our country and stealing our resources.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hacim-Obmed/100002800720995 Hacim Obmed

    Don’t lie, you are a democrat and therefore you are ultimately to blame for this sort of :divide and concur” class war stuff. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hacim-Obmed/100002800720995 Hacim Obmed

    Don’t lie, you are a democrat and therefore you are ultimately to blame for this sort of :divide and concur” class war stuff. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hacim-Obmed/100002800720995 Hacim Obmed

    Get out of your country you before it gets very ugly.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hacim-Obmed/100002800720995 Hacim Obmed

    Get out of your country you before it gets very ugly.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hacim-Obmed/100002800720995 Hacim Obmed

    Ge back to the slime hole you came from!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hacim-Obmed/100002800720995 Hacim Obmed

    Ge back to the slime hole you came from!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hacim-Obmed/100002800720995 Hacim Obmed

    Get out you are not wanted and you have no right to be here. It is getting ugly!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Hacim-Obmed/100002800720995 Hacim Obmed

    Get out you are not wanted and you have no right to be here. It is getting ugly!

  • Anonymous

    Don’t make me puke, I am a Libertarian Constitutionalist, never have been a Democrat.

  • Anonymous

    Don’t make me puke, I am a Libertarian Constitutionalist, never have been a Democrat.

  • Anonymous

    I would like to invite all of these leftist, anarchist minded commies to look into moving to Cuba where they might be more appreciated. Take your piss bucket and your tent with you because you’re gonna need them.

  • Anonymous

    I would like to invite all of these leftist, anarchist minded commies to look into moving to Cuba where they might be more appreciated. Take your piss bucket and your tent with you because you’re gonna need them.

  • June Venable

    USmerican100 – When you  find out, let us know.

  • June Venable

    USmerican100 – When you  find out, let us know.

  • Pancho3

    Illegal immigration
    exists in the United States of America is that the government, international
    bankers, churches, and corporations want it. 
    It is part of the strategy to “Divide and Conquer” and stay in power.

     

    In the 60s, the
    average American started taking a good, hard look at what our government and
    corporations were doing.  Americans
    finally started to wake up from our long slumber, and when we did, we were
    appalled at what we saw.  We started to
    unite; it did not mater if one was white, brown, black, red, or yellow, we were
    all Americans.  We had a common enemy,
    the corrupt:  entrenched bureaucrats,
    professional politicians, and corporations. 
    They saw the writing on the wall, the days of “business as usual” were
    numbered. 

     

    To combat this new awakening in the American public, the
    strategy bureaucrats, politicians, and corporations adopted was a three-pronged
    attack: mass immigration, legal and illegal; introducing the concept of
    multiculturalism; and creating the mechanism to fund legal challenges to any
    attempt by the American people regain control.

     

    Up until 1965, the
    United States of America had a conservative immigration policy that allowed approximately 100,000 to 200,000
    foreign nationals a year into the U.S.  Then
    it was changed.  Over a million foreign nationals a year were allowed to enter the U.S. legally
    and illegally.  There are now approximately 11 to 33 million foreign nationals
    illegally in the U.S.  This demonstrates
    that illegal immigration is condoned, and is even rewarded by the government
    through social programs and amnesty.  The new immigrants were encouraged to settle in separate
    communities, and retain their culture and language, discouraging assimilation
    into American culture and any attempts to define themselves as simply
    “American”.

     

    The
    birth of multiculturalism was the next part of the attack on American
    solidarity.  Ethnic studies was
    introduced on campuses and schools around the country, and later became a
    mandatory class.  Ethnic studies evolved
    into ethnic clubs, and later departments based on race, e.g. Black studies,
    Latino studies, etc.  Ethnic studies gave
    birth to a quasi-nationalism based on race. 
    The hyphenated American was born. 
    This created further conflict and division among the American people.

     

    The
    final prong of this attack was the use of foundations, e.g., the Ford
    Foundation, etc. to funnel money from corporations to special interest
    groups, e.g., MEChA, La Raza, and their variants.  These in turn fund special interest law
    firms, e.g., ACLU, SPLC, and MALDEF,
    to challenge any attempt by the American citizen to regain control of our
    country.  The American citizens have
    repeatedly: introduced legislation, e.g. prop 187, SB 1070, and … voted on it,
    and had it overwhelmingly approved by the voters, only to have these special
    interest law firms challenge the legislation, tie it up in the courts, then
    have it struck down by a judge with a political agenda.  The final insult happened when the elected officials
    failed to appeal that lower court decision and fight to have the will of the
    people protected, as they are required by law to do.

     

    The idea of “Divide and
    Conquer” has been used throughout history to consolidate and retain power, and it is an
    act of war against the American people, of all colors. 
    It has created strife and division among the American people, and
    preventing them from presenting a unified front and wresting power from the
    current establishment.  The corrupt
    gangsters are still in charge.

  • Pancho3

    Illegal immigration
    exists in the United States of America is that the government, international
    bankers, churches, and corporations want it. 
    It is part of the strategy to “Divide and Conquer” and stay in power.

     

    In the 60s, the
    average American started taking a good, hard look at what our government and
    corporations were doing.  Americans
    finally started to wake up from our long slumber, and when we did, we were
    appalled at what we saw.  We started to
    unite; it did not mater if one was white, brown, black, red, or yellow, we were
    all Americans.  We had a common enemy,
    the corrupt:  entrenched bureaucrats,
    professional politicians, and corporations. 
    They saw the writing on the wall, the days of “business as usual” were
    numbered. 

     

    To combat this new awakening in the American public, the
    strategy bureaucrats, politicians, and corporations adopted was a three-pronged
    attack: mass immigration, legal and illegal; introducing the concept of
    multiculturalism; and creating the mechanism to fund legal challenges to any
    attempt by the American people regain control.

     

    Up until 1965, the
    United States of America had a conservative immigration policy that allowed approximately 100,000 to 200,000
    foreign nationals a year into the U.S.  Then
    it was changed.  Over a million foreign nationals a year were allowed to enter the U.S. legally
    and illegally.  There are now approximately 11 to 33 million foreign nationals
    illegally in the U.S.  This demonstrates
    that illegal immigration is condoned, and is even rewarded by the government
    through social programs and amnesty.  The new immigrants were encouraged to settle in separate
    communities, and retain their culture and language, discouraging assimilation
    into American culture and any attempts to define themselves as simply
    “American”.

     

    The
    birth of multiculturalism was the next part of the attack on American
    solidarity.  Ethnic studies was
    introduced on campuses and schools around the country, and later became a
    mandatory class.  Ethnic studies evolved
    into ethnic clubs, and later departments based on race, e.g. Black studies,
    Latino studies, etc.  Ethnic studies gave
    birth to a quasi-nationalism based on race. 
    The hyphenated American was born. 
    This created further conflict and division among the American people.

     

    The
    final prong of this attack was the use of foundations, e.g., the Ford
    Foundation, etc. to funnel money from corporations to special interest
    groups, e.g., MEChA, La Raza, and their variants.  These in turn fund special interest law
    firms, e.g., ACLU, SPLC, and MALDEF,
    to challenge any attempt by the American citizen to regain control of our
    country.  The American citizens have
    repeatedly: introduced legislation, e.g. prop 187, SB 1070, and … voted on it,
    and had it overwhelmingly approved by the voters, only to have these special
    interest law firms challenge the legislation, tie it up in the courts, then
    have it struck down by a judge with a political agenda.  The final insult happened when the elected officials
    failed to appeal that lower court decision and fight to have the will of the
    people protected, as they are required by law to do.

     

    The idea of “Divide and
    Conquer” has been used throughout history to consolidate and retain power, and it is an
    act of war against the American people, of all colors. 
    It has created strife and division among the American people, and
    preventing them from presenting a unified front and wresting power from the
    current establishment.  The corrupt
    gangsters are still in charge.

  • Anonymous

    Let’s face it, this illegal immigration has cost us billions upon billions on people who have no right to be in this country. Just look at the anchor babies the American taxpayers have paid for, 4.2 million over the last 18-20 years, and then handed them a U.S. birth certificate like it was a piece of Christmas candy. At $6,000-$8,000 per birth, that again, is a lot of money for people who have no right to be in this country. The problems go on with the costs of schooling these illegal alien children and giving them free health care for the illegal alien child and the parent, (parents). Now we have demonstrations by these illegal aliens demanding we give them amnesty and in-state tuition. Again these demands come from people who have no right to be in this country. Last I checked, we have no open borders, which is another thing these illegals want along with the la raza activists, and of course the Catholic Church and the worthless aclu. Either we give our country away to these illegal aliens who have no right to be here, or we take back our country. Which do you want? Keep in mind, illegal immigration is a cancer, it has to be eradicated not tolerated.So take that, you occupy idiots.

  • Anonymous

    Let’s face it, this illegal immigration has cost us billions upon billions on people who have no right to be in this country. Just look at the anchor babies the American taxpayers have paid for, 4.2 million over the last 18-20 years, and then handed them a U.S. birth certificate like it was a piece of Christmas candy. At $6,000-$8,000 per birth, that again, is a lot of money for people who have no right to be in this country. The problems go on with the costs of schooling these illegal alien children and giving them free health care for the illegal alien child and the parent, (parents). Now we have demonstrations by these illegal aliens demanding we give them amnesty and in-state tuition. Again these demands come from people who have no right to be in this country. Last I checked, we have no open borders, which is another thing these illegals want along with the la raza activists, and of course the Catholic Church and the worthless aclu. Either we give our country away to these illegal aliens who have no right to be here, or we take back our country. Which do you want? Keep in mind, illegal immigration is a cancer, it has to be eradicated not tolerated.So take that, you occupy idiots.

  • Anonymous

    Absolutely correct. I would add that the power elite also found it more then beneficial to destroy the middle class. When people spend most of their time trying to make ends meet, they have little time to become informed. Most Americans still get their news from TV. Not such a good source and more then limited. Often watching in between dinner, children and trying to rest up for the next day they only get a smidgen of info. More often then not the news has been edited, screened and spun. Few Americans have the time to spend hours on the internet or reading a couple of newspapers. By forcing people to invest most of their time trying to earn a living, they have effectively dumbed down a large part of the populace. A uninformed population is easy to manipulate and control.

    Division and the population being uninformed or misinformed is the main reason the corrupt and incompetent political class is continually re-elected.

  • Anonymous

    Absolutely correct. I would add that the power elite also found it more then beneficial to destroy the middle class. When people spend most of their time trying to make ends meet, they have little time to become informed. Most Americans still get their news from TV. Not such a good source and more then limited. Often watching in between dinner, children and trying to rest up for the next day they only get a smidgen of info. More often then not the news has been edited, screened and spun. Few Americans have the time to spend hours on the internet or reading a couple of newspapers. By forcing people to invest most of their time trying to earn a living, they have effectively dumbed down a large part of the populace. A uninformed population is easy to manipulate and control.

    Division and the population being uninformed or misinformed is the main reason the corrupt and incompetent political class is continually re-elected.

  • Anonymous

    Most of the protestors are NOT in favor of AMNESTY! A few jerks are standing there with their signs. This protest is against Wall St Bankers and Corporations stealing American taxpayer monies.
    Don’t allow these “protest haters” to lie to you!

  • Anonymous

    Most of the protestors are NOT in favor of AMNESTY! A few jerks are standing there with their signs. This protest is against Wall St Bankers and Corporations stealing American taxpayer monies.
    Don’t allow these “protest haters” to lie to you!

  • Anonymous

    American Mike these protestors are protesting the theft of our Treasury by the 1%
    of the elite! They are actually fighting for you.
    They are not there for amnesty! A few protestors are sneaking in with signs.
    Don’t let sites like this fool you.

  • Anonymous

    American Mike these protestors are protesting the theft of our Treasury by the 1%
    of the elite! They are actually fighting for you.
    They are not there for amnesty! A few protestors are sneaking in with signs.
    Don’t let sites like this fool you.

  • Anonymous

    The 1% are lying to you! The protestors are protesting the theft of our Treasury!
    Don’t allow the 1% to lie to you!

  • Anonymous

    The 1% are lying to you! The protestors are protesting the theft of our Treasury!
    Don’t allow the 1% to lie to you!

  • Anonymous

    Guest you are a thief just like the 1% stealing from the American people.
    When you sneak in the U.S. you are a criminal and a thief.

  • Anonymous

    Guest you are a thief just like the 1% stealing from the American people.
    When you sneak in the U.S. you are a criminal and a thief.

  • Anonymous

    The illegal knows he is a lying thief. But doesn’t care.

  • Anonymous

    BajaRat you are wasting your time. The elite made their money from opium poppies decades ago and are wealthier than the Rockafellers
    and are now controlling the world. They will not allow the military at the border because they are making a killing with the drugs coming in.
    The banks now have billions of laundered money in them from the sale of drugs.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs

  • Anonymous

    BajaRat you are wasting your time. The elite made their money from opium poppies decades ago and are wealthier than the Rockafellers
    and are now controlling the world. They will not allow the military at the border because they are making a killing with the drugs coming in.
    The banks now have billions of laundered money in them from the sale of drugs.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/apr/03/us-bank-mexico-drug-gangs

  • Anonymous

    Please stop making an ass of yourself. We are in our home.
    You should go home.

  • Anonymous

    Please stop making an ass of yourself. We are in our home.
    You should go home.

  • Anonymous

     The products are being made by foreigners in their own countries moron. What a dumb Jasper.

  • Anonymous

     The products are being made by foreigners in their own countries moron. What a dumb Jasper.

  • Anonymous

    Hahahaha Hacim Obmed is a real American name! Hahahahha

  • Anonymous

    Hahahaha Hacim Obmed is a real American name! Hahahahha

  • Anonymous

    Hacim Obmed you are hilarious! Hahahahaha

  • Anonymous

    Hacim Obmed you are hilarious! Hahahahaha

  • Anonymous

    They know what they are protesting. There is just too much to talk about.

  • Anonymous

    They know what they are protesting. There is just too much to talk about.

  • Anonymous

    Tell them there are free tamales in TJ they will run for the border fast!

  • Anonymous

    Tell them there are free tamales in TJ they will run for the border fast!

  • Anonymous

    Illegals have no class they butt in line in supermarkets and pepper spray people
    on Black Friday too. The witch was a Mexican.

  • Anonymous

    Illegals have no class they butt in line in supermarkets and pepper spray people
    on Black Friday too. The witch was a Mexican.

  • Anonymous

    i get rid of special order 40 do to it LA is a sanctuary city and ran out money  do to it! its time LA use 287(G) to help controll illegal aliens in thier city. welfare payment to illegals is outragous.do to illegal using emergency room= for primary health care giver the real people who go there arnt being taken care of and hospital are closing down too!

  • Anonymous

    Are you saying this entire story is made up?

  • Anonymous

    Are you saying this entire story is made up?

  • Anonymous

    So why don’t the anti-Wall Streeters kick the pro-amnesty, pro-Wall Streeters out?

  • Anonymous

    So why don’t the anti-Wall Streeters kick the pro-amnesty, pro-Wall Streeters out?

  • Anonymous

    Maybe they don’t even see the signs most are small. And it could be the opposition is posting the signs to give the protesters a bad name.
    Haven’t you noticed that most of the Wall st protesters are Americans?

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    Hmmmm… agents provocateur sent in by the Soros / Obama no doubt, or maybe the SPLC or ADL who are famous for pulling that crap.

  • http://nobama.com/ BajaRat

    Hmmmm… agents provocateur sent in by the Soros / Obama no doubt, or maybe the SPLC or ADL who are famous for pulling that crap.